Marijke Vervoort funnet / Marijke Vervoort found

[GrendelRaptor8]

Det var Marijke Vervoort som ble funnet i helgen. Trolig dødsårsak er drukning: http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/innenriks/article716271.ece

[nilsj]

En kjapp oversettelse til engelsk:

MISSING MARIJKE (26) IS FOUND

The body that was found at the base of the Besseggen mountain on Sunday morning is now identified by the Coroner as the missing 26 year old Dutch woman Marijke Vervoort.

According to Police Inspector Olav Sørby at the Lillehammer police, drowning is the likely cause of death. A preliminary Coroner's report was released on Monday.

Marijke's relatives are informed.

Edit: Leste ikke den andre tråden først.. det var jo oversatt der også.

[old_hand]

Photo-link of the coffin being brought ashore a week ago =in here=.

Such a quiet sea (lake). Very difficult to comprehend that someone could drown in that lake, someone who can swim. Though the water temperature will generally be quite low, too low to survive a long stay in the water. And it's different of course with the very, very fast moving waters of the mountainrivers, when the snow is melting.

[Tom]

Kan det hende at hun har blitt tatt av Murus strøm langt nede, og blitt ført av strømmen ut i Gjende? Man faller ikke bare ut i Gjende og dør. Det virker helt umulig.

[Gjest]

Tom, det var det første jeg tenkte også. Jeg har selv hatt problemer med å krysse denne elven, de fleste steder er det umulig. Jeg mener å huske at det var en person som omkom under krysning av denne elven for et par år siden også, stemmer ikke det?!

[old_hand]

With all due respect, but though "my Norwegian" certainly has improved, it would be far too risky to interpret everything the two of you said in here (Tom & El Gringo). At the same time though, I am aware this has all been a matter for the Lom police, and they don't need my opinion.

I've read comments this past week on a great many messageboards, newssites and forums, comments regarding where the body was discovered. Many comments are from people who wonder why tourists decide to visit environments like Jotunheimen all alone. There's a lot of (cheap) criticism in that respect. And the best explanations I found were the comments made by Sam in the other thread here, and one on a Dutch messageboard where somebody simply asked: "what if you don't have anyone else to accompany you?"

And that is true.

I understand many people who know Jotunheimen well, think she may have tried to cross the river Muru.

Therefore, here is a photo (of mid-July 1995) of the place where Muru finds it way into the Gjende Lake...

Nothing will ever bring her back alive. But to think she loved travelling and that she "lived her dreams" by going to Norway, dying in a place as beautiful and "real" - meaning authentic "Mother Nature" - as Jotunheimen may perhaps bring at least a little consolation to those who miss her so dearly.

original source of the photo

edited because the photo is now hosted elsewhere, to avoid stealing bandwith

Picture is removed because it is copyrighted by another party, and unless poster can prove approval from the photograph, posting of the image is not allowed.

[Ragnar]

Tom, det var det første jeg tenkte også. Jeg har selv hatt problemer med å krysse denne elven, de fleste steder er det umulig. Jeg mener å huske at det var en person som omkom under krysning av denne elven for et par år siden også, stemmer ikke det?!

Er det ikkje ei heilårsbru over elva like ved Memrubu? Er det noko som tilseier at det ikkje skulle vera mogleg å krysse over denne tidleg i juni? Kvifor vil det eventuelt vera aktuelt å krysse Muru forutan nede ved hytta? Evt kva for ruter/løyper vil det vera? Er ikkje veldig kjent i området, men har sett elva ganske stri.

Søkte litt og fann desse to artiklane om han som falt i Muru i august 2003:

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/nrk_hedmark_og_oppland/2956040.html

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2003/08/03/375062.html

"Mannen ble tatt av strømmen da han skulle vasse over elva"

Av artikkelen går det vel fram at det må ha vore relativt langt oppe i dalen, ref " Kameraten gikk langs elvebredden i 3 til 4 kilometer før han mistet mannen av syne".

Veit nokon meir om dette?

Briefly in english:

-Asking about if there is any reason to cross the river Muru other places than the bridge nearbye Memrubu cabin, and which routes such a crossing be an option.

-Searched and found some news articles about a man who drowned in Muru river in august 2003.

@old_hand: added your picture in the posting, as I think you ment to do. Hope it's ok.

edit:Your picture didn't show up inside your post. No big deal anyway.

[old_hand]

@old_hand: added your picture in the posting, as I think you ment to do. Hope it's ok.

I must confess I don't quite understand what you're referring to Ragnar, as the photo of Muru ending into Lake Gjende still has its original URL at present. But it's late here meanwhile, and whatever you decide to do: it's okay. And thank you.

[Gjest]

What me, and Tom before me, said, was that we find it unlikely that she fell into the lake and drowned, because, as you say, it's so quiet. But the nearby river called Muru can be quite mean sometimes, especially in June with all the snow melting I can imagine. One summer day in 2001 I was going to climb Surtningssui, the most famous and popular peak in this area. I started off from Memurubu and found a path that led me to the wrong side of the river (using a bridge very close to Memurubu). I didn't think much about it and kept on walking on this path believing that there would be a bridge further up the valley - without taking a look at the map. Very stupid indeed. When I had been walking for a while, with no signs of a bridge, I did take a look at the map, and I realized that there wouldn't be any more bridges. But now I had been walking such a long distance that I decided I had come to the "point of no return", so I kept walking upwards the valley, now looking for a place to cross the river safely. It took a very long time, and I was really far up the valley when I finally found a place where I could jump safely across. And then I could climb Surtningssui!

My point is that this river is indeed difficult to cross, if you don't of course use the bridge at Memurubu. And if you, like me that summer, don't do too much thinking, nor look at the map when you start off from Memurubu, you may later find yourself in a position where it will be very tempting to try to cross this river.

The news articles in Ragnar's links tell the sad story about a guy who tried to wade across the very same river in 2003 - but could not stand up to the tremendous powers of the stream, and was killed.

[Tom]

Noen mener det er usannsynlig at hun falt i Muru. Men er det ikke mye mer usannsynlig at hun bare gikk ned til bredden av Gjende, datt uti og døde? Noe slikt har aldri skjedd før. Muru har derimot tatt liv og skapt store problemer for folk mang en gang. Hun gikk altså fra Spiterstulen. Kan hun ha hatt Besseggen som mål? Kan hun ha gått Uradalen-Gjendebu-Bukkelægret? Kan hun ha gått over Memurutunga? Kan hun til og med ha gått over Heilstugubreen/Memurubreen? Uansett hvor hun gikk endte hun opp i Gjende, og man faller ikke bare ut i Gjende uten videre. Det er og blir umulig. Kanskje hun har gått ned til bredden og ikke visst om broa lenger opp. Kanskje hun har prøvd å krysse. Dere som finner dette usannsynlig får være så gode å komme opp med en mer sannsynlig teori.

[Astrid H]

Min første tanke da jeg hørte at hun var funnet to km vest for Memurubu var at hun må ha falt i Mura under et krysningsforsøk og blitt ført ut i Gjende, men det er to ting som gjør denne teorien usikker.

For det første er det hevdet at det er lagt ut helårsbru ved Memurubu. Så spørs det om det er noen som vet noe sikkert om dette eller om den var ødelagt eller noe slikt.

Det andre er at jeg synes det er pussig at noen skal kunne føres to km "bakover" i Gjende. Jeg vil tro at strømmene i Gjende går fra Gjendebu og utover mot Gjendesheim hvor utløpet er, men det kan være mulig at det finnes slike strømmer i Gjende.

Er det noen som vet noe om disse spørsmålene?

Hvis hun ikke er blitt tatt av Mura og ført to km "bakover" i Gjende er det mulig at hun har falt uti i nærheten av Gjendebu eller før Bukkelegeret. Er det noen som vet om Gjende var isfritt i pinsen.

Den dagen hun evt. gikk til Gjendebu var det relativt kaldt. (Det vet jeg fordi vi var selv på vei opp mot Tverråtinden den dagen). Neste dag var det godt og varmt, og sansynligvis mye mer vann i elvene.

Kan det være noe småbekker på vei til Bukkelegeret som har vært store den dagen og hvor hun kan ha sklidd og falt ut i Gjende? Med stor sekk er det ikke sikkert at det har vært så lett å komme opp igjen og heller ikke hvis hun har kommet under is eller sørpe.

Hvis hun har blitt ført med strøm, vil jeg si at det er mer sannsynlig at hun har blitt ført østover enn vestover, slik at en må lete etter steder hun kan ha falt ut vest for det stedet hun ble funnet.

My first thought was, when I heard that she was found two km west of Memurubu, that she must have fallen into Mura and brought with the river into Gjende, but there is two things making this theory uncertain.

First, it has been claimed that there is a bridge over Mura at Memurubu that is also staying there during the winter. Is there someone who knows something certain about this, or if the bridge could have been broken or something?

Second, it is pussling me that she should have been brought two km "backward" in Gjende. I would beleive that the currents in Gjende would go eastwards, because the outlet from the lake is at Gjendesheim (in the eastern end of the lake), but could it still be possible that she could have been brought westward by a current.

Is there someone here on the forum that could answer this questions?

If she did not fall into Mura and then brought into Gjende, it is possible that she could have fallen into Gjende nearby Bukkelegeret. Does anyone know if Gjende was free from ice the With holliday?

The day she evt. went from Spiterstulen to Gjendebu the weather was relatively cold. The next day was warmer, and the was probably more water in the rivers. Is it possible tha she could have fallen into Gjende on her way from Gjendebu to Bukkelegeret at a swollen small river, and with a big backpack there is not so easy to get up again from the water, espesially if there could have been much slush or if she got under some ice?

If she has been taken of a current in Gjende, I think it is more likely that she would have been brought eastward than westward, so that if you should look for places she could have fallen into Gjende, I would look east of the place she was found.

[Julia]

My first thought was, when I heard that she was found two km west of Memurubu, that she must have fallen into Mura and brought with the river into Gjende, but there is two things making this theory uncertain.

First, it has been claimed that there is a bridge over Mura at Memurubu that is also staying there during the winter. Is there someone who knows something certain about this, or if the bridge could have been broken or something?

Second, it is pussling me that she should have been brought two km "backward" in Gjende. I would beleive that the currents in Gjende would go eastwards, because the outlet from the lake is at Gjendesheim (in the eastern end of the lake), but could it still be possible that she could have been brought westward by a current.

I can't answer this questions, Astrid, I only can speculate. Bus as for question nr. 2, with a strong easterly wind I would think it to be possible. I don't know how long a drowned person floats before he/she sinks, but I think it would be possible.

I also think that Sam's theory about her wanting to go to Gjendebu but taking the path towards Memurubu by mistake and then correcting her direction and falling on the Bukkelægeret sounds possible (if likely I don't know). Tom states that it is impossible to simply fall into Gjende and die, but from the steep south cliff of the Memurutunga this would be perfectly possible. But in this case the autopsy should show the body damages of the fall (she would have hit rock first, before hitting the water some hundred meters further below).

I my self have been thinking if it would be possible to have fallen into Storåe and be carried that far out on Gjende, but I don't know. In that case she might have been found further towards Gjendebu.

[Astrid H]

I think it was said that the cause of her death was drowning. If she had fallen several hundred meters down from Gjendetunga, I think that would be the cause of her death. If she should have fallen down Bukkelegeret, where would she have ended up then, and how tall could her fall have been?

[Julia]

I think it was said that the cause of her death was drowning. If she had fallen several hundred meters down from Gjendetunga, I think that would be the cause of her death. If she should have fallen down Bukkelegeret, where would she have ended up then, and how tall could her fall have been?

Her fall would have been several hundred meters, and most probably first on rock (wich would have left traces on her body, yes) and then into the water. She would have fallen near the finding place though. But if the cause of her death was drowning, that only leaves a river, yes (as many of us have been thinking all along, together with the crevass-theory). And with a heavy backpack it is nearly impossible to get out of a wild river again. I also question if it would have helped much to have been two (apart from the fact that then everybody would have known right away and exactly what had happened and she might have been found quicker). A strong current takes you away so quickly, so someone standing at the rivers bank would have difficulties in reaching out that fast. So I guess the question that remains is if she fell into Muru or Storåe.

[old_hand]

Being no medical expert nor a Jotunheimen expert, what I want to say is this: Apparently the press was informed that the most likely cause of death was drowning. So let's take that information for a fact. It seems that if people drown, their lungs will be filled with water. But if they die before their body somehow "arrives" in the water (due to whatever reasons), it seems that a pathologist can see the difference. Because even when people are fully unconscious, they will still keep breathing. That activity is controlled by "the most primary" part of our brains: breathing.

In this case, with the possible situation of accidentally sliding from a high-up mountaintrail and falling very deep down and into the lake, maybe at least in theory it would be hard to tell (at an autopsy). Headinjuries sustained during a fall, are not necessarily fatal instantly. Yet for no specific reasons (it's just a feeling) I would not be surprised if the victim's relatives really want to leave it at this.

This is not meant to discourage any further discussion here. Certainly not. It's just that on another (travel)board we're presently still dealing with the grief, the immense frustrations and the anger of a relative of another woman who - in the Himalayas - fell from an icy and very slippery trail to her death several hundreds of meters earlier this year (March). She too hiked alone. And I'm impressed, and saddened, by the impact of such tragedies on the close relatives (friends, colleagues) of people who died that way: on a lovely holiday, in the beautfiful mountains. I hope you'll understand. And I hope you won't take this as "criticism" on the way this thread is developing, because that isn't my intention. I take a great interest in forensic investigation, logic, and such things. In Marijke's case it seems that there is no suspicion at all of any possible foul play. And I guess the main lesson, for everyone, is again that it's potentially extra dangerous to make such (hiking) journeys all on your own...

[vertikal]

Then, what are the scenarios for what happend that day?

Last sigthing of her was at Spiterstulen June 4. (at what time?) and we now know she headed for some place at Gjende. I would think that's a pretty long walk, and at least its unlikely that she would pass Gjendebu and walk on towards Memurubu, which was suggested at an possible explanation for her ending up in Gjende 2 km west of Memurubu.

I presume she must have planned to walk to a hut before next night, what are the options?

In this direction there are 4 huts; Leirvassbu, Olavsbu, Gjendebu and Memurubu. I don't know anything about how these were open at that time. Other people here can certainly tell. And maybe tell if it is possible to stay overnight at one of these without leaving trace.

Leirvassbu is the shortest trip, but it was not open (?) and any stay there would have been recorded.

Olavsbu is a bit off route if you are heading for Gjende, but gives an oppotunity to stay overnight and maybe not sign in. This is a self-served hut. The walk from spitestulen is around 9 hours in summer conditions. From Olavsbu to Gjendebu is another 5 hours.

Gjendebu also has a self-served hut so its an option, but I think the walk from Spiterstulen is around 11 hours in summertime, and even more in early June when there is much snow. Seems to like an optimistic goal, but possible. But to pass Gjendebu and head on for Memurubu is not an option without an overnight stay. Is it possible that she stayed there? In case there couldn't be anyone else there, because this would have been reported.

To have Memurubu as an goal for the day/night is unlikely I think. This would include passing much snow and two glaciers. Were there an open path there at the time?

And - what about the rucksack? since it is not mentioned I guess she didn't have it on her back when she was found, and it is not found anywhere else. That leads me to the thought that she had it on her when the accident happend (and that she could get it off her). In a river a rucksack can be twisted of her, but in a lake this is more unlikely. Leads to my belief that she fell into a river and then the river carried her into Gjende.

Which rivers are possible to do that?

Many open questions here. Maybe someone with better local information can answer some of them.

[Astrid H]

I don't have the map in front of me, but as far as I can memorize, she does not have to cross Storåe, or? (assuming she was heading for Besseggen). But she has to cross the river coming from Hinnotefjellet and Semmelholet (?). There is also a waterfall nearby, causing the wintertrail taking another way than the summertrail. Could she have fallen into Storåe as far up as this and then being brought with the river straight out in Gjende and then with some current to where she was found?

If this is the case, it would be possible to find some of her belongings along this route.

There is another thing. I suppose the helicopter searching for her would have searched at Gjendebu. We have not heard that anyone have seen some traces after her. If she had reached Gjendebu, and stayed there for the night, she would probably have paid for the night. Turistforeningen should then find an "engangsfullmakt" or money from her.

[Jens P]

Hei !

Hvis dere studerer bildet lenger opp på siden så er det lett å se hvilken vei strømmen går på det stedet i Gjende. Vannet fra elva er farget av brepartikler. Dette vannet brer seg mot vest. Altså vil en kropp som elva eventuellt drar med seg ut i sjøen også flyte den veien.

[Ragnar]

I presume she must have planned to walk to a hut before next night, what are the options?

In this direction there are 4 huts; Leirvassbu, Olavsbu, Gjendebu and Memurubu. I don't know anything about how these were open at that time. Other people here can certainly tell. And maybe tell if it is possible to stay overnight at one of these without leaving trace.

Status for huts around 4th of june 2006, according to turistforeningen.no, memurubu.com, gjendebu.com and leirvassbu.no:

Leirvassbu: Closed

Memurubu: Closed

Olavsbu: Open, locked with a "dnt-standard key"

Gjendebu: Closed, but open self service quarter. Noted as locked with a "dnt-standard key"

Gjendebu's self service quarter might have been accessable without a key (it wasn't locked in february).

Gjendebu also has a self-served hut so its an option, but I think the walk from Spiterstulen is around 11 hours in summertime, and even more in early June when there is much snow

Spiterstulen-Gjendebu: approx 8 hour according to DNT

Gjendebu-Memurubu (om storådalen): 6 hours

Gjendebu-Memurubu (om Bukkelægret): 5 hours

[Tom]

Sjekk bildet av Murus grønne vann som går ut i Gjende. Jammen går det ikke i stor grad vestover...

[Tom]

Jeg tror følgende var hennes plan i Jotunheimen; å gå de to mest populære attraksjonene, Galdhøpiggen og Besseggen. Etter å ha besteget Galdhøpiggen, som hun utvilsomt gjorde, bestemte hun seg for å gå over til Memurubu. Siden breene sperrer den korteste passasjen gikk hun Uradalen, og fra øvre del av Storådalen over mot Memurutunga. På Memurutunga kan hun ha blitt usikker, og enten rotet seg ned bratta mot Gjende eller på en eller annen måte endt opp ved Muru uten å vite om broa over. At hun har klart å falle i elva eller ut i Gjende tyder på at hun har gjort et eller annet dumt, dessverre. Men jeg synes i hvert fall det virker meget sannsynlig at Memurubu og Besseggen var målet. Antakelig med buss videre mot Oslo etter dette.

[vertikal]

Men siden det ikke er noen overnattingsmulighet på Memurubu virker det usannsynlig å planlegge en så lang dagsetappe som Spiterstulen- Gjendesheim. Det er vel minst 14 timer? Vil tro at det selv til Memurubu vil ta 10 timer på denne årstiden.

Men hvis hun er blitt sliten og det har blitt så mørkt som det kan bli så tidlig i juni så er det vel større sannsynlighet for å gjøre feil. Dessverre.

[Astrid H]

Etter at jeg har studert bildet av Mura, synes jeg at teorien om at hun har falt i Mura har styrket seg, men det er likevel et mysterium hvis broen var i orden. Er det noen som vet om broen var i orden?

Hvis hun har falt i Mura, tror jeg hun gikk til Gjendebu første dagen. Hun kan muligens ha overnattet i nødbua i Storådalen og gått derfra over Memurutunga til Memurubu. Det er fullt mulig at hun ikke visste at Memurubu var stengt. Så vidt jeg har forstått spurte hun ikke etter informasjon på Spiterstulen, men kjøpte et kart. Hun hadde sansynligvis sovepose så hun kunne også overnatte ute i fint vær.

Vertikal: jeg synes du overvurderer hvor mange timer disse turene tar.

Tom: hun var ikke på Galdhøpiggen, men gikk sammen med den lenge etterlyste polakken og snudde et sted på halvvegen.

[vertikal]

Astrid: Kan godt være at disse turene går raskere enn jeg har satt opp. Og jeg har bare gått deler av dette selv.

Men tidene er hentet fra DNTs oppsatte tider. Spiterstulen - Gjendebu er satt opp til 10 timer, og det er på sommertid. (Ser av en annen tråd her følgende sitat: Turen gjennom Urdadalen var veldig fin, men tror det var forholdsvis tidlig å gå den ruta i juni, da det lå i overkant mye snø enkelte steder)

Tider for Spiterstulen - Memurubu finner jeg, men det er ikke så mye kortere enn å gå til Gjendebu og man må i tillegg høyere opp så jeg antar samme tid. Ikke mye mindre i hvert fall.

Gjendebu - Memurubu er satt opp til 5 timer. Memurubu - Gjendesheim langs vannet er satt opp til 3,5 time, over Besseggen er det 7 timer. Min erfaring generelt er at uerfarne gjerne bruker lengre tid enn det oppsatte.

Fortsatt står det igjen at en direkte tur Spiterstulen - Gjendesheim er alt for langt for en dagstur.

Poenget mitt er å prøve å se ut fra realitetene vi nå kjenner hva slags plan hun kan ha hatt den dagen. Men vi vet jo ikke hvilke realiteter hun var klar over da hun startet.

[Tom]

Tom: hun var ikke på Galdhøpiggen, men gikk sammen med den lenge etterlyste polakken og snudde et sted på halvvegen.

Ok, men det at hun ikke nådde toppen forandrer ikke min tro på at nettopp Galdhøpiggen og Besseggen var det hun hadde sett seg ut som mål. Jeg er redd hun har vært i overkant ambisiøs da hun la i vei fra Stulen mot Gjende. Som noen nevner, hun kan ha blitt veldig sliten og derav hatt redusert dømmekraft. Det er også verd å huske at hun ikke er kjent i norske fjell. Ting som virker selvfølgelige for oss som er kjent der, kan oppleves annerledes for henne. Mørket tror jeg neppe har vært noen avgjørende faktor. På den datoen kan man vandre rundt hele døgnet der oppe.