Savnet person (Sist sett på Spiterstulen) / missing person in Jotunheimen

[Parbat]

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=119493

Sist sett på Spiterstulen..

[Yngve]

Man lever,og reiser,så plutselig er man borte,helt jæveli med den dama,håper inderlig hun kommer til rette.

Men,erfaring som ryggsekk turist i europa duger dårlig i heimen tidlig juni vil jeg si.

[Astrid H]

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=119493

Sist sett på Spiterstulen..

Hei,

vi var på Spiterstulen 1. pinsedag. Den dagen hun forsvant. Vi bodde ikke der men kom kjørende opp fra Nordal camping i Lom. Vi hadde planlagt å gå på Midtre Tverråtinden. Det var mange biler parkert på parkeringsplassen der og det var også noen folk som var i ferd med å gå. Det så ut som om de skulle til Galdhøpiggen. På Svellnosbreen traff vi en polsk far med to sønner som lekte seg i Eventyrisen. Desverre kom vi ikke på toppen på grunn av en ca 3 m høy skavl som gikk langs toppeggen. Den var isete og har og vi hadde ikke utstyr nok med oss. Da vi kom ned igjen på parkeringsplassen var det få biler der. Vi snakket med en kar som kjørte en bil med Røysheim-logo på siden. Han hadde vært på Galdhøpiggen med noen folk. Det er ikke lett å kjenne folk igjen i turtøy, og det er vanskelig å si om noen av de vi så kunne ha vært den forsvunnede.

[Magnus S]

Fra lokalavisa GD i dag om saken: http://www.gd.no/artikkel.asp?Artid=184664

Se for øvrig bildet fra Spiterstulen - jammen ikke mye snø igjen i Visdalen.

[morten]

Vi kvaet oss opp fra Gjende til Besseggen i går kveld og da fløy redningshelikopterer et siste sveip over den delen av Heimen før det returnerte sørover til basen sin (Golsfjellet?)

[Tom]

Morten, er det noe snø igjen på eggen og Veslefjell?

Veldig lite på Veslefjell. I de nordvendte hellingene mot Eggen ligger det fortsatt. Sørgelig lite snø i fjellet 14.06 i år!!!

[yardbird]

Men vann er det vel allikevel nok av - jeg mener, Sjoa går skikkelig flomstor?

[Magnus S]

Oppdatert artikkel om den saken med en del nye forhold (i alle fall for meg): http://www.gd.no/artikkel.asp?Artid=184800

[morten]

Det jeg tenker når jeg leser alt dette her, som en nyttig påminnelse til alle oss som går alene i fjellet. Fjellregelen: Si i fra hvor man går. Har selv syndet mot denne, men det kan være gull verdt at noen vet sånn ca. hvor man går.

[old_hand]

Hello,

If you don't mind my asking (and in English), from the (Norwegian) press I understood that police has a.o. things also tried to check for any mobile telephone conversations Marijke may have made while out there. Normally that's a possibility indeed to try and locate where someone was when she or he made a mobile phonecall.

I was wondering how those attempts by the police to look for this type of "electronic evidence" relate to the following message, posted on April 7 of this year by a tourist who also visited Jotunheimen:

"Virtual Tourist.com" <--- click link

Mobiles that don't work

If you go hiking in the mountains of Jotunheimen

[. . .]

and, last but not least, you may easily get lost. You may think that in case of an emergency you can always use your mobile to call for help. Yet the mountains block the radio waves and, unless you have climbed one of the highest peaks, you might not get the signal at all. For environmental reasons all link stations are located outside Jotunheimen. It seems to be simpler from the main road that we travelled along - you can see my husband sending an SMS from our stopping place.

Do you think that's true, or sometimes true (depending on location and the weather)? Or did the poster exaggerate about the impossibility to make a mobile phonecall in Jotunheimen, in case of emergency?

Just wondering. The missing woman brought a Dutch cellphone it seems, but not a satellite phone (in satellite phone traffic, high mountains are no obstacles as far as I know).

[Svein]

Do you think that's true, or sometimes true (depending on location and the weather)? Or did the poster exaggerate about the impossibility to make a mobile phonecall in Jotunheimen, in case of emergency?

It's possible, but not everywhere. A few places are mentioned here

https://www.fjellforum.no/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&controller=topic&id=485&view=next&sid=aa3c7d7b9b0c0b5838a0076e5ad3e304

[old_hand]

Thank you! So there seems to be some truth in that warning on the VT-forum indeed.

It's such a big shame that apparently nobody knows in what direction she wanted to go. But if the police would know by now where she had been already (in Jotunheimen), and the direction she came from, I imagine (but I've never been there) that would be an indication of where (what direction or directions) she could have gone, and where not.

[Parbat]

I know for a fact that the reception for mobile phone calls in the Spiterstulen-area has been non-existant in the past.

One could speculate as to wether her luggage would indicate if she was planing on taking a short walk in Jotunheimen, or a more extensive hut-to-hut trip.

I am thinking in terms of clothes and other equipment she might have brought along.

[morten]

It's such a big shame that apparently nobody knows in what direction she wanted to go.

That's indeed the big shame yes. Provided nothing criminal has happened though it is very likely that she walked somewhere in Jotunheimen. It's very rare that people walk the road down towards Bøverdalen (you kan hitchhike or take a taxi), and besides it is very unlikely that noone would have noticed a person walking along the road. If she indeed did hitchhike it's very unlikely that the person giving a lift wouldn't have given a sign of life by now if there was nothing extraordinary or criminal involved.

Again provided nothing criminal has happened (which to me seems very unlikely in the Spiterstulen area) one of the things that really could have led to a "total disapperance" is the case of a breaking snowbridge or otherwise sliding into a powerful river.

I hope there will be possible to establish some clues of the direction after checking out in Spiterstulen, while the way things are now she could have gone in virtually any direction making the search extremely difficult.

I can confirm that cellphone coverage is exceptionally bad in the Visdalen area. Unless it has been improved, almost the entire valley is outside the cellphone network.

[Tom]

Morten, du er sykt god i engelsk.

I read somewhere that the cellphone contact is better for emergency numbers than regular numbers. Another option is that she could have tried to experience some of the glaciers in the area on her own, whitch could be dangerous. Does anybody know wheather Turistforeningen has put out the bridges already? Some of the side rivers of Visdalen can be rather severe during this time of year.

Another option is, of course, suicide. It's not pleasant to consider, but it happens totally unexpected sometimes. Yet another option is that something criminal has happend. It's not likely at all, really, but that also happens from time to time.

[Svein]

Morten, du er sykt god i engelsk.

Da can he få translate at teleselskapene/nettoperatørene har kart that shows dekning i de ulike areas. Prøvde å do et search, men fant nothing relevant..

Å spekulere i eller nevne om noen har ønsket å ende sine dager på egenhånd er litt ufjølgt syns jeg. Tror at letemannskap, politi og andre instanser har vurdert alle muligheter her. Tiden jobber mot den savnede, og det tror jeg nok de vet - også de berørte/slekt/venner.

[Astrid H]

Da can he få translate at teleselskapene/nettoperatørene har kart that shows dekning i de ulike areas. Prøvde å do et search, men fant nothing relevant..

Å spekulere i eller nevne om noen har ønsket å ende sine dager på egenhånd er litt ufjølgt syns jeg. Tror at letemannskap, politi og andre instanser har vurdert alle muligheter her. Tiden jobber mot den savnede, og det tror jeg nok de vet - også de berørte/slekt/venner.

Hello,

I think it is very unlikely that she should have commited suicide. We know that there had been a newly broken relationship with her boy-friend, but she went to Norway, Bergen, Norway in a nutshell (Bergen - Gudvangen - Flom - Bergen - or the other way around). And after that she went to Ålesund, and then she went to Nordal camping. If she had wanted to commit suicide, why do all this other things? We know that she received a cell-phone - call (or text) the day before she disapeared. Perhaps the content of that phonecall or textcall was someting that made her want to commit suicide? But if not, I think she can have been the victim of a crime. The way she was traveling was not indicating that she wanted to actually walk in the Norwegian mountans. The last sign of her is at Spiterstulen - she had payed for the room with her credit-card and she was staying outside the front door with her rucksack beside her. To me - it sounds like she was waiting for someone to pick her up. And that is the big question - who gave her lift up to Spiterstuen, and perhaps - was it the same person/persons who gave her lift back? She was staying at Nordal camping the night before she stayd at Spiterstulen - and we stayed ourselves at Nordal camping from saturday to monday and we saw that there was a lot of down hill skiing people that was staying there and driving up and down to Juvass. I think it is possible that she could have talked to some of these people and told them something of her plans - and perhaps got a lift up to Spiterstulen.

It is also a possibility that she would have engaged herself with some stranger, since her relationship had been broken recently, and I must admit that I have a really bad feeling that something criminal has been commited here.

[Ragnar]

First of all, I want to express my sympathy to friends and family of Marijke Vervoort in this difficult time.

...

If you don't mind my asking (and in English), from the (Norwegian) press I understood that police has a.o. things also tried to check for any mobile telephone conversations Marijke may have made while out there. Normally that's a possibility indeed to try and locate where someone was when she or he made a mobile phonecall.

I was wondering how those attempts by the police to look for this type of "electronic evidence" relate to the following message, posted on April 7 of this year by a tourist who also visited Jotunheimen:

...

Well, I can just asume that the local police did get a court-approval for collecting electronic clues in this case. The next step would be to contact the two main mobile operators (Telenor mobil and Netcom) and get at list of log entries for that mobile subscriber.

(All of the Dutch mobile operators do have a GSM/3G roaming agreement with both Telenor Mobil and Netcom, so the phone would normally choose the network with the strongest signal at any given time.)

The log entry would presumely contain information about the home network, sim card identity (the subscriber), the imei code (phone idenity), cell id/bts station, timestamp, type of communication (call/message), outgoing or incoming phone number and some more information. In this case only the cell id/bts station would be interesting. That information would only tell you the location of the given Base Tranciver Station, and depending the setup, mabye a weak indication of the direction the call originated from. A GSM type BTS (900 MHz) would normally only cover an area of 1-35km, in some cases up to 60km. The newspaper article state that the last log entry (a phone call) was made on june 3th, before coming to Spiterstulen, therebye this "location" information would be of no help. In order to trace a mobile phone somewhat more accuratly, it must be switched on and be logged on to a network. Even in this case, the positioning would be quite unclear, beacuse of the likelyness of just a singel BTS signal present, but would hace indicated a distance +/- 500meters in a circle drawn from the BTS. Comparingly, in a city with several BTS signals present, the accuracy would typically be pinpointed to +/- 100-200 meters with few error margins.

There is also some other possible log-entries from a GSM phone. Due to visiting another network (roaming), the roaming network will check the status of the subscriber in the home network several times a day, and when turning the phone on (location update) as normal. This will update the registers (VLR - Visitor loction register, HLR - Home location register: Both internal databases in a GSM network to keep track of the subscriber). I do not think it is normal to gather this information when investigating a case, but if it is possible to timestamp the last update position update message in VLR, it might be very usefull information!

According to this page: http://swpat.ffii.org/pikta/txt/ep/1222/834/ (search for "timestamp"),

the HLR saves a timestamp when getting a location update from VLR. However, VLR dosn't alway relay this message if the user havn't moved to another "area". The information in the VLR seems like temporaty data, and I'm not sure how long it's stored.

In this case, a search in Telenor mobil's/Netcom's VLR/HLR database at the relevant MSC's could be relevant. Also, at the dutch mobile operators HLR/MSC, one could certainly get the timestamp from the last location update. It might just turn out to be from june 3th, just meaning that the phone not having been in contact with the network since then.

Since there is so few clues in this case, I would recomend the above searches (I'm not a proffessional in this matter, just writing as a private person)

If we imagine for somewhat reason that Marijke left with a car from Spiterstulen, and the phone was swithed on, these register updates might have occured when getting coverage again, but there would be no normal log-entries I think (only "active" connections will be logged, like a call or a text message).

I will also mention that if someone sendt a text message to this phone on june 4th for instance, the above possible register information would likely be of less relevance. Thats because such a message would be recived once getting coverage again, creating a log entry, which didn't occur. The dutch mobile operator knows this, as such a message would still be waiting in their "short text message centre" for delivery. I asume that you would need a dutch court approval to get that kind of information.

The mobile coverage in and around Jotunheimen do vary depending the topography (high mountains, deep valleys etc). Some places there have been improved coverage the latest years, but much of the mountains areas dosn't have any signals at all. The excetion being the higher parts of peaks and summits, which sometimes get a line-of-sight to a base station (gsm).

In the area Spiterstulen/Visdalen, there are no GSM base stations. The closest station I think is located at Juvasshytta/Juvass sommarskisenter (a tourist hut/summer ski centre) aproximetly 1800 meters above sea level and 5km north-east of Spiterstulen turist hut. This station give a very strong signal to Galdhøpiggen (the highest peak), but only the higher parts where one mostly have a line-of-sight. However, this summit is also coverd by a BTS quite far away (somewhere in the Lom area I guess). Other base station are mostly located nearby the main road. Coverage maps are availible on the internet:

Telenor mobil: http://telenormobil.no/dekninginnland/index.do

Netcom: https://netcom.no/privat/kundeservice/dekningogutland/kart.html

Telenor mobil's map indicate a "outdoor" signal at Spiterstulen, but it may be to weak, or even not present at all, due to the fact that coverage is theoretical calculated. I did not get a signal there a year ago.

-------------------------------

One of the News articles stated that she had a copy of Lonely planets guidebook for Norway. It would be interesting to know what kind of information is printed there about Jotunheimen, as it seems that it was one of her main sources of information.

Another key point would be to find out how she got to Spiterstulen. If she hitchhiked ut to the mountain hut, the driver might have information of her further intentions. When using the road, and parking at the hut, you have to pay a fee. I think also you write down the register plate number, so it would be quite easy to contact most drivers.

I'm sure the police looks into these matters as part of the investigation

I find it quite unlikely that someone would go to e.g Galdhøpiggen or Glitterind without planning their next stay.

Marijke did pay for the stay at Spiterstulen, so it seems like she was going "somewhere" the next night.

-Going the marked route to another turist hut. Unlikely if she didn't have a map and most people not familiar in the area would ask for information in that matter (is the hut open, snow conditions, length etc)

-Getting transportation out of the walley having "a plan" on where to go and stay. If the driver was a foreign tourist, he might not have gotten the news about her dissapperance and therefore not telling the police. Or thoose scenarios Astrid H mentioned in her post just above this one.

[old_hand]

Ragnar you're a gem! You say you're no professional in this matter, just writing as a private person. Well, so am I. But just in case, I'll make sure your long and dedicated reply here will reach those responsible nevertheless. I'll send the concerned Dutch policeforce as well as the relatives/friends a copy by e-mail right away. In fact they both have links already to the 2 threads about Marijke on this board.

Personally I don't doubt the Norwegian police know very well what they're doing, also with these technical (electronical) issues. Of course they do. But a big problem sometimes if it concerns more than one country (such as here with the use of a Dutch cellphone) is that authorities such as Police often don't communicate directly with eachother, or with a provider of some sort. Especially not in the early stages of a search, when communications go either via an Embassy or via Interpol. I don't know if that's the case here as well (still), but if it is you can bet that much valuable time would be lost that way.

Again, thank you!!! I don't know the least about the technical aspects of mobile phone traffic, but I agree with you that in this case it's something to check out real fast and professionally, and with the help of all parties technically involved, in Norway as well as in Holland.

[old_hand]

There is one more thing I want to post a reply about here, in reaction to a suggestion that the missing woman may have wanted to end her life. If someone brings up that possibility, how long do they know her? And how much do they know about her? Did they ever speak with her in person recently, in depth and about personal matters?

If I'm correct, the author of this www.gd.no newsarticle quotes information about a boyfriend that he says he found in Dutch newsarticles. He doesn't specify his source. To my knowledge no reference whatsoever was made in the Dutch media to any relationships of the missing woman, other than her friendship with a female friend in Oslo with whom she was supposed to meet last Saturday. Just so you'll know.

Another (online) newspaper, nrk.no, brought a story on Friday June 16 about divers who have checked out a certain location. And there was mention of snifferdogs reacting to a spot in Uradalen. I'm under the impression Norwegian Police and many others actively involved in the searches, are doing all they can. IF she's injured some place, and still alive, spreading speculations about a possible suicide i.e. "voluntary disappearance" cóuld perhaps demoralize to a certain degree the energy and efforts of the searchteams.

Were you aware that in the early 1990's an Australian medical student survived during 43 whole days and nights in the freezing winter cold on a much higher altitude in the Himalayas? His name is James Scott. No, I do not think anyone will ever "break his record", or come even close to it. But to start giving up on Marijke Vervoort, a healthy young woman, only thirteen days after she was reportedly last seen in that part of Norway and this time of the year, would be an immense shame in my opinion.

[morten]

This is new:

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=120022

All this stuff with the Polish man with whom she hitchhiked to Spiterstulen and ther partly joint venture towards Galdhøpiggen on the 3rd.

[old_hand]

Thank you (like many others here will want to thank you as well for posting this newslink). From a quick glance, I get the impression the Police are still looking for this Polish man? Meaning they have not yet been able to question him?

By the way morten, if you and others would prefer to communicate with me in German here rather than English, that is fine with me too.

[kjesso]

Thank you (like many others here will want to thank you as well for posting this newslink). From a quick glance, I get the impression the Police are still looking for this Polish man? Meaning they have not yet been able to question him?

Old Hand,

your reading is correct. They are trying to get in touch with the man from Poland. The photo shows his car at the Spiterstulen parking lot. To use this parking lot you have to pay a parking fee at Spiterstulen, and those who do so, write the licence plate number on the receipt, and leave it in the car. If the owner of said car had paid for the use of the parking lot, it would have been relatively easy to track him down, but unfortunately he didn't pay.

E

[lph]

First of all, I sincerely hope someone finds Marijke soon. Her disappearance is puzzling, more than anything, considering this is an extremely popular hiking area. It's early in the season, but still. It seems a little illogical for her as a stranger to the area to choose a route that no-one else has used since.

Just a short comment to you, old_hand: I don't think you need to worry about the searchcrews being demoralized. I've taken part in several searches of this kind, also for an assumed suicide (which indeed turned out to be the case). In my experience we were even more motivated than usual by the thought that we might find the person in time, before he made up his mind.

I would suggest that we not speculate further on her motives here on this forum. We really don't know anything about it, and the ones who do have relevant information, her family and the police, are the ones leading the search. I can imagine that it can be quite painful for the family to read loose speculations on the subject by strangers.

[Astrid H]

Thank you (like many others here will want to thank you as well for posting this newslink). From a quick glance, I get the impression the Police are still looking for this Polish man? Meaning they have not yet been able to question him?

By the way morten, if you and others would prefer to communicate with me in German here rather than English, that is fine with me too.

Hello again,

first to the parking fee. My husband went up to the cabin to pay the fee, but he did not remember the registration number of the car, so he only wrote "a gray Mitchubitzi" on the note. There was another man there also at the same time who actually had the same problem. You are first parking and the you are going up to the cabin to pay. People doesn't usually remember the registration number of their cars, and you can't see the car from the cabin. So perhaps this was same for the polish car, too.

and seccond - my husband and I went up to "Eventyrisen" - that was sunday. There we met some polish guys. I think I saw only one grown up and two youngsters, but my husband is sure there were two or perhaps three grown up men plus the youngsters. He arriwed a little earlier than me, and walked a little around. I was sitting eating my food. I would say that there is a big possibility that there are some connections between the polish guys we met and the one she was hiking with up to Spiterstulen. If they arriwed saturday, the polish must have slept somewhere. If it was in the cabin, they would have been registrated, but we also saw two or three tents on the other side of the river when we started our trip. When we came back there were no tents there. There is a possibility that the polish ones were staying in tents. Perhaps they were a group.

The two youngsters talkes good Norwegian. The one polish we talked to, talked very little norwegian. That means that the boys probably are living in Norway, but we don't know if the grown up was their father, either. But of course, children learn language easier that the grown ups. The boys said they came from Gdansk, but they did not say anything about where they were living now. And we did not ask, either. We asked them if they were interesting in climbing, and they told us that they were not allowed to climb.

Either I or my husband saw any woman there.