Backcoutry skis for track, SKATING and decent downhill

[Giorgio Pioda]

Hi volks,

I'm considering to buy backcoutry skis for the next winter season. I'm a very good XC skater and only a moderate classic skier and until now I've used skating ski and boots offtrails.

I need steel edges, and appropriate width to be able to fit into a groomed track. I'm very attracted by the Asnes short fell system, since with appropriate conditions I could take the fells away and skate.

The first question is the ski choice: Asnes Vikafiell, Amundsen/Sondre or even Nansen or Ingstadt.

Have you experience over all these aspects? Fitting into groomed tracks, AND SKATING

I also have a problem with the bindings. Do I have to choose NNN-BC to be able to skate or is it possible to use 75mm with an underliing plate?

I'll ski mainly on the Amiata mountain (in Toscana, Italy, see www.amiataneve.it); the snow is most of the time quite icy and the terrain is not as steep as on the alps but is also definitely NOT flat. I'm 190 tall and 95-100 Kg.

Fells free to answer in norwegian. Google translate will do the rest...

TIA

Giorgio

[TormodiFuruskogen]

Hi!

Do you know how wide the tracks are in your area? The Ingstad/Nansen skies is quite wide and will catch the edges of the tracks in turns moastly. In straight tracks it`s ok if the track is wide enough.

Tracks for XC skiing is often not even close to fit those type of skii. Ofthen you see wider tracks in mountain areas where such equipment is needed. And the more narrower in the lowland where the XC skiers train.

I use the Åsnes Breidablikk at the moment, I`m not much of a skater so not sure how it will perform over time. But I guess if youre quite good you won`t have a problem getting around.

75mm boots are quite heavy, so are the bindings compared to the BC/NNN types. I use Crispi Stetind with BC Magnum Manual and like them a lot.

One other thing is that the wider skies will float around a bit on hard surfaces/tracks - but it nice in deep snow and turns easily down the mountain.

Run this test through Google Translate: http://www.klikk.no/helse/dinkropp/friluft/article398037.ece

[Giorgio Pioda]

I've tested the following for the track measure. I've plugged two skating skis

into the same track, so I guess are about 80mm.

[TormodiFuruskogen]

Ok - then Ingstad won`t fit, it`s 84mm wide.

Nansen is 76mm, Amundsen and Sondre is 67mm and Vikafjell 60mm.

Vikafjell has 3/4 steel edge. Amundsen, Sondre and Vikafjell would be the skies most similar to XC skies. While the wider models are quite soft when it comes to tension, more suitable for soft, deep snow and easy to turn.

[TormodiFuruskogen]

By the way putting a underlining plate under the 75mm bindings is quite normal for telemark skiers as you probobly know, so why not on any of these models to get the binding off the ground. It will also help in the tracks cause the 75mm is quite wide and will bump into the side of the tracks quite easily.

What 75mm boots have you knowledge of? And what BC/NNN do you know about?

[Giorgio Pioda]

Well, I'm very naif about backcountry.

Until now I'm skiing with Madshus Hypersonic with Salomon Pilot bindings

and Salomon Skating boots.

Skating boots are quite good offtrails

and offer good control (enogh stiff); also the pilot binding is not bad

for the control, but breaks. I've already broken one skiing

in hard crusty conditions.

I think that any of the asnens model will give better support for turning

and downhill tha my (almost) competion skating gear.

I would like to go back to classic tech, at least a bit; but I would like to

keep the skating technique as option in my tours.

[TormodiFuruskogen]

This is the type of binding I use: http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Rottefella/idesc/NNN+BC+Magnum+Manual+Binding/Store/MG/item/102123/N/1107

Not sure how the strength is compared to the gear you use - But that`s one of the type they use on all sorts of expeditions. North/south pole and so on.

You find some good boots at crispi.it under "telemark" . Other good brands of boots are Alfa and Varg. They have both NNN/BC and 75mm.

Have you ever had a chanse to try this kind of skii equipment? Is it at all in use in southern parts of Europe?

[Giorgio Pioda]

Interesting...

Are BC-Magnum compatible with "normal" BC bots ?

The main problem for me is effetively that I have to choose and order all the equipment

from internet, since there are really no local dealer either in Toscana (where I take my vacation),

nor in the Italian part of Switzerland (where I live).

The few dealer that already knows that there

is a backcoutry discipline can offer to order only from catalogue, and I've nerver seen Asnes catalogue

available... Just only Fisher I wouls say. But Fisher has only waxless, or waxable models. Waxless is No Go

for skating. Waxable would fit, but then I'll forget to use classical technique since the snow condition varies

to strong from the start to the end of the tour.

[martin.m]

Interesting...

Are BC-Magnum compatible with "normal" BC bots ? Yes, the other Rottefella system is smaller and thinner, see the different systems at this link: http://rottefella.no/en/Products/?showProductsUnder=58

The main problem for me is effetively that I have to choose and order all the equipment

from internet, since there are really no local dealer either in Toscana (where I take my vacation),

nor in the Italian part of Switzerland (where I live).

The few dealer that already knows that there

is a backcoutry discipline can offer to order only from catalogue, and I've nerver seen Asnes catalogue

available... Here's the link to Åsnes' site: http://www.asnes.com/ Just only Fisher I wouls say Have you considered the Fischer Powerlight? From the information you give, this seems to me as an good option. But Fisher has only waxless, or waxable models. Waxless is No Go

for skating. Waxable would fit, but then I'll forget to use classical technique since the snow condition varies

to strong from the start to the end of the tour. In the mountains I use a combination of Åsnes Rago (same model as Amundsen, but different styling), Crispi Stetind and Rottefella BC magnum. This equipment is in my opinion not very well suited for skating (for longer periods) due to aspects of weight and form of the ski. The equipment is "made" for cross-country/mountain use.

[TormodiFuruskogen]

If you haven`t seen the Rottefella BC bindings here are the different models: http://rottefella.no/en/Products/

I guess all boots with BC in their name would fit these bindings yes.

What temperatures do you skii in? The boots I`ve mentioned is quite warm, made for cold weather conditions.

To bad for you to have to spend a lot of money on boots and other equipment when not able to try them on...

[Giorgio Pioda]

The temperatures are almost allways aroud 0. Starting

at +3 at 1200m and getting -2 at 1700m for exemple.

[Giorgio Pioda]

Sounds really interesting... , like Madshus Kikut Steel... The main drawback is the lack of short skins; and mayby I'll still prefer

a compromise with larger ski and slight better turning ability.

[TormodiFuruskogen]

And you say the snow is quite hard and icy? At that warm temperatures you won`t need the "expedition" gear at all... and the weight issue for skating is probobly quite big when it comes to skii several kilometers.

Also the short-fell system is quite slow compared to using grip-wax: http://www.swixsport.com/eway/default.aspx?pid=278&trg=MainContent_6179&MainContent_6179=6117:0:24,2709

I only use short-fells on long trips pulling a pulk og going up steep hills/mountains.

[jankj]

Let's see - you enjoy skating, and to a lesser extent classic X-country, and have equipment to do exactly that. Which makes me think that when you are skiing you are running as fast as you can, either skating or classic X-country.

Please bear in mind that the skiis you're thinking of isn't made for running, but for WALKING. It is (of course) possible to run and skate with them, but for you and your your background it will feel like your feet is stuck in concrete. I use the term "touring equipment" for that kind of skiis.

That being said, there is plenty of good advice on touring equipment to be found here. And yes, touring skiis with heavier boots, heavier binding, wider skiis and possibly steel edges will be much more stable going downhill.

I wouldn't consider anything wider than 60 mm for track use, and for your situation I'd probably pick something narrover. My touring skiis are 60mm (Madshus Voss, 60-50-55), and they are too wide for freshly groomed tracks. I would be surprised if tracks where you live are any wider when fresh (although the tracks may be less durable - possible more sun and more people?). I can and skate with my touring skiis, but belive me it is a huge step up to my "running" pair of skiis. With my touring skiis I am slugishly trying to run, with my "running" skiis I am flying...

One final word of caution about the internett: Skiis should match your weight as well as your height. (In a perfect world you'd also match skiis with your strength and technique). That match can be hard to do over internet.

[Giorgio Pioda]

This guy is "worse" than me

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/859199/Evolution-Skate-Ski-Alpinism-TR

But definitely I dont feel any more alone...

[Giorgio Pioda]

I wouldn't consider anything wider than 60 mm for track use, and for your situation I'd probably pick something narrover. My touring skiis are 60mm (Madshus Voss, 60-50-55), and they are too wide for freshly groomed tracks. I would be surprised if tracks where you live are any wider when fresh (although the tracks may be less durable - possible more sun and more people?). I can and skate with my touring skiis, but belive me it is a huge step up to my "running" pair of skiis. With my touring skiis I am slugishly trying to run, with my "running" skiis I am flying...

I belive that it is a step up. But skating out of groomed track is not flying anyway, even with light skis, and strongly depends upon snow conditions

One final word of caution about the internett: Skiis should match your weight as well as your height. (In a perfect world you'd also match skiis with your strength and technique). That match can be hard to do over internet.

I know, but being 1.90 / 100 Kg force me to almost allways to but per catalogue. I'm probably and average weight skier for Norway, but I am a an heavy overload for the southern europe standards for XC. Just finding some 1.95 long skating ski is difficoult !

[syrre]

Have you considered the Salomon XADV range?

+ Light, not too wide, steel edges

- waxless

Still - could be something...

[Giorgio Pioda]

I'm slowing coming to the following conclusions.

1) With almost every ski is possible to skate at least in a decent manner; for exemple

there is a guy in this forum http://www.skibanter.com/showthread.php?t=12331 reporting that he

really liked to skate with Fischer GTS and 75 mm (80/60/70 sidecut backcountry classic waxable)! Following this

I think that any ski model with a sidecut equal or lower than 20mm could be a good solution.

2) The weight; I've put my skis on the balance to see a couple of values. My madshus Hypersonic + SNS pilot are 1.7 Kg. And older

pair of Classic XC Karhu 46mm + old Salomon binding are 1.95 Kg. Skating with these I feel NO weghit difference. The Salomon

skating boots are about 1.6 KG a pair. (Old XC boots for old Salomon system are lighter, about 1.3 Kg). So I ski with about 3.4 KG. Just to compare I've also weighted my old Downhill equipment... Well Ski + Bindings are 6.3 KG and boots about 5 Kg, total 11.3 Kg (and I've skated with them for short tracks!).

Thus I guess that a combination of Nansen + 3pin cable + Good 75 mm boots would land in, let say 2.2 + 0.7 + 2.3 = 5.2 Kg and a combinationof Asnes Nansen + BC system + boots 2.2 + 0.2 + 1.8 = 4.4 Kg. Both are still acceptable weights.

3) For these day, when the snow is really corny or icy, probably the fischer powerlight is the only model that is somehow similar to the incredible Fischer Revo 1992-1993, which where one of the very few skating skis with FULL METAL EDGES.

Conclusion: I'll probably buy two sets

-the Fischer powerlight putting on it recycled SNS pilot (I still have more skis to put to garbage, like an unskiable Atomic skating model)

-and probably a Asnes Nansen equipment for heavy/wet snow, still undecided if BC or 75mm, but I'm more and more thinking to go with 75mm with cable.

Well Asnes is really pricey, but the shot fell are really sexy. I've seen around some short fell system with straps on, but I guess they are not so reliable.