old_hand

It's a long article about Mount Everest and about the Khumbu, published last weekend. Some people here may take an interest: "Conservationists campaign to close Everest" Link => Should Everest be closed?

My fault, I guess. I assumed people would click one or two of the links. This is what it says below the picture in the MSNBC article: With this being the explanation given by Die Zeit: The British Isles are in the image to give a better idea of the scale of this development; not everyone has a fairly good idea of the size of it all. Hence the British Isles-drawing. You knew, didn't you? You have a dislike for the Brits by any chance? Would you have preferred to see Norway there instead? Well, just as long as you don't ask for China...

. August 2005 . . . . compared to . . . . August 2006 Schwindsüchtige Arktis - Die Zeit Greenland ice sheet melting faster: study - Reuters Satellite views show big gaps in Arctic ice - MSNBC.com Frightening idea. Humans (people) will try to adapt and survive such BIG changes, but what about the animals? Such as the polar bears who are having an ever decreasing territory, ever more trouble to survive and with some of them actually drowning... The Poles - Polar bear attacks: A good reason to choose Antarctica instead of the Arctic .

Hi Kjiver, hi Lyngve, Yes, I agree it's a big, big shame. And for Nepal too if this goes on, because in the meantime some agencies have started to behave rather unfriendly, if not rude, on a few travelboards. (I'll be the first to admit that some trekkers and myself as well haven't been very polite either lately on these boards all the time, but nevertheless). It seems that quite a number of the real "established, well-to-do" Kathmandu agencies don't care the least about independent trekkers. In fact, some begin suggesting that they don't care at all if the independent trekkers would as of now stay away: Raj, of Thirdpole, to yakshaver on YetiZone part of an e-mail from mr. Tank Prasad Ojha to Andrées de Ruiter, in Germany, who mailed a great many contacts in view of tourism in Nepal to speak of his worries and disagreement with the new TRC/TAAN rules. And that part of the e-mail now shown on YetiZone, really isn't the worst part of the whole mail. It's odd: Mr. Ojha is no trekking agent yet claims to be a Geoscientist and Project Research Coordinator of the Himalayan Tibet Research Group of a University in Arizona (United States). Why is he so much against independent trekking in the Himalayas? Afraid that trekkers will steal the mountains away? The Petition, by the way, now has 482 confirmed signatures!, also thanks to the participation/support from Fjellforum members/readers!

Hi all Lóvely thread: the reports, the many photos! And Gunnar, I want to thank you for you've made my day with that photo of the dog (I presume) at "Marco e Rosa-hytta"! I've seldom seen a picture só beautiful: the animal, the composition, and the colours... Thánk you for sharing it here!

^ ^ ^ up you go 387 signatures up till now: LINK No discussion here, which is not really surprising since Fjellforum's main focus is of course not trekking in Nepal. But over on other travelboards for trekking in Nepal's Himalayas, unfortunately it's really one, big, sad mess of discussions, confusions and irritations: mainly because nobody manages to make the Nepalese authorities give clear, solid information on what to expect as of October 1. If any marketing school wants to study a clear example of "how do I kill a part of my tourism industry?", they should study the implementation of the TRC in Nepal this fall...

Following Ragnar's post about Satelitte-phones and Emergency Beacons, and in respect of general discussion about travelling (hiking) alone. Here is another idea in respect of improving safety, by using a device for communication with the outside world: Safety text Note: I'm amazed, if not shocked, to read on its present homepage now that the system would be temporarily "off-air" due to a kind of upgrading. If that means that for a few days the whole Safety Text-system is down, that surely is bad news and a sign of amateurism, I think, that's unforgiveable with these type of security services. Other parts of the website don't seem to be kept updated, so I don't know what's going on with the organisation. But the idea of "Safety Text", its technical specs and so on, sounded magnificent. I came to learn about Safety Text last year, through a publication in The Scotsman of April 18, 2005 that is no longer online. Safety Text is a system whereby you can let your folks or friends know in advance where you'll be going and for how long. But if you don't activate any codes in time to let them know you're back / okay / all is fine, an alarm goes off - anywhere in the world - to tell f.e. parents or a friend that there may be something wrong with the Safety Text-user and they're activated to check out your situation. A few related links: => Father of Lucie Blackman creates safety text service "Hopes to protect teens and travellers" (networks.silicon.com 5 July 2004) => Rethinking Drinking, in a College Online Magazine of March 2006 => "Safety Text", on Leicester News (undated article) This may have been developed more towards teenagers and young adults participating in "city life". However, I can imagine that it's a system that - perhaps with some modifications - could very well be used by trekkers and hikers in remote parts of a country as well. In view of the present situation with the Safety Text-website, let's keep an eye on developments in that organisation!

=> Link to the PETITION on Trekkingforum.com Full text:

This topic is new to this board, but heavily discussed on several other travelboards ever since mid July. BACKGROUND Nepal announced the introduction of a Trekking Registration Certificate (TRC), to be obtained through government-authorized trekking agencies only, implying the need to tell in advance exactly where you'll be going, and POSSIBLY also implying that as of October 1st people cannot a] hire their own guide and/or porter(s) anymore, and b] are not allowed anymore to trek (hike) alone ("independently"). This "alone" not necessarily meaning alone = solo, but: without officially registered trekkingguides. Example: also a pair or a group (with or without many previous years of Nepal trekking experiences) would violate the law if they set out on the trails nót accompanied by registered personnel. Behaviour that could, legally, lead to heavy fines and (at least theoretically) even to imprisonment of the foreign trekker(s). The latter, the "independent trekking issue" is still very much in discussion, also inside Nepal it seems. There is absolutely no clarity to what will happen as of October 1, or even where these TRC's can be bought and where not. Foreign trekkers who are - without a TRC - IN the mountains on October 1 already and scheduled to descend only after that date, have no idea if they can be fined in that situation. People (foreign trekkers) who've contacted the TAAN or the NTB (Nepal Tourism Board) over the past month, received contradictory answers to many questions. And they never received clear answers re. independent trekking. In terms of information, it's one, big mess. There are many among the foreign and experienced Nepal trekkers who feel the whole thing as a powergrab and a money-grab from Kathmandu, which will result in the non-organised guides and porters losing all their business and income. So of course there is great opposition against these news rules, on many travelboards. Although the idea to monitor trekkers for safety reasons, is of course appreciated. But it's hard to understand how effective that will all be. And why would only the travelagencies that are members of the Trekking Agents Association of Nepal (TAAN) "benefit"? Not really in terms of money (the new TRC is said to cost some NR 250), but because all their other colleagues/competitors would be out of business in one, big blow... So for those here on Fjellforum who didn't know yet and think they may be affected by these new laws, here are a few links to discussions elsewhere on Nepal, its TAAN and its TRC. And this post will be followed by the text of a PETITION for independent trekking, launched by the webmaster of the Austrian/German Trekkingforum yesterday. Some background/discussion elsewhere (English & German): YetiZone, 1 - YetiZone, 2 Trekinfo, 1 - Trekinfo, 2 Thorn Tree, 1 - Thorn Tree, 2 - Thorn Tree, 3 Trekkingforum, 1 - Trekkingforum, 2 - Trekkingforum, 3 "TRC - Petition für Individualtrekking " Text of the official TAAN Press Release regarding the TRC So to those of you here who agree that the introduction of trekkers permits should nót mean the end of independent trekking: PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION ! .

In respect of satphones, here are links & quotes re. some fairly new articles on Mounteverest.net. I hope you don't mind they're added here; I don't know if this is plain "advertising", and moreover I haven't really looked in the Terms of Use of Fjellforum re. (somewhat) commercial postings. I'm just intrigued that for not more than 130 grams, you can carry a genuine satellitephone with you. I think they used to be a whole lot heavier, and probably bigger too. http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=14945 http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=14951 Will add another link/article regarding a safety device for travellers/hikers a little later; I don't know if it's still online, so it may take some searching/surfing.

I guess so too Tom, in the first place because - as far as I know - nobody ever reported seeing her anymore. And from the accounts of her arrival in Lom and later in Spiterstulen with her trip to Galdhøpiggen, she seemed to be a woman who would easily make some contact and chat a bit with people she would meet on a trail. And they would remember her... By the way, it doesn't really surprise me she turned back halfway during the attempt to climb Galdhøpiggen. I mean, it can't be thát easy - Galdhøpiggen - if a real Khumbu-Sherpa was employed for many years as a guide on that mountain, the tallest mountain in northern Europe. Source No need to feel ashamed or in bad shape if you don't manage to reach the summit of Galdhøpiggen, if you ask me...

Besseggen (so the rather spectacular Besseggen Ridge) was - according to information that later emerged from The Netherlands (see the other, long thread) - indeed on her itinerary. Not so strange, of course, considering that this was her first visit ever to Jotunheimen. It seems to me that you are assuming she had an accident while on her way still, from Spiterstulen, towards the Besseggen Ridge (or "direction south-east"). And there is no evidence, it seems, that - on the contrary - she was on her way back towards Leirvassbu or Spiterstulen/Lom already. A week later (on Saturday) she was expected in Oslo. Maybe it wouldn't have made sense at all to return nórth, and leave Jotunheimen again via Lom if you could leave it on its southern side as well (and travel to Oslo). It's none of our business I'm afraid, but it would certainly be interesting to determine just about whén (meaning a date) this accident happened. Also because "we" here are not sure at all if she knew anything in advance about huts still being closed and the absence of a number of bridges. In that respect I'm reminded of Ragnar's reply in the other thread, his technical reply regarding cellphones and the electronic traces that they can leave behind. It was the first thing that the Lom police announced: that they were checking out any possible "electronic evidence" or "traces" (cellphone, creditcard). Taking into account the lack of coverage for the mobile phones in Jotunheimen in a great many places, perhaps they've still been able to establish a bit of her whereabouts. On the other hand, their search-pattern (and the pattern re. search-area's that the Dutch covered a little while later) seems to indicate that she was never believed to have reached an area really far away from Spiterstulen. Walking the Besseggen Ridge itself, I suppose (but that's mere speculation re. the altitude) would probably gain contact again with the cellphone network. Next question: what type of cellphone did she have, what batteries, what age, and how long would it be detectable with the batteries not being re-charged (no electricity around)? A related question: she probably had a watch, but did it show dates as well and was it waterproof? You see, so many questions and police will now have several answers re. such facts, but what is the use? There must be só many potentially dangerous spots on all those trails, especially when you start climbing or whenever you would try to cross a river, all alone.

Being no medical expert nor a Jotunheimen expert, what I want to say is this: Apparently the press was informed that the most likely cause of death was drowning. So let's take that information for a fact. It seems that if people drown, their lungs will be filled with water. But if they die before their body somehow "arrives" in the water (due to whatever reasons), it seems that a pathologist can see the difference. Because even when people are fully unconscious, they will still keep breathing. That activity is controlled by "the most primary" part of our brains: breathing. In this case, with the possible situation of accidentally sliding from a high-up mountaintrail and falling very deep down and into the lake, maybe at least in theory it would be hard to tell (at an autopsy). Headinjuries sustained during a fall, are not necessarily fatal instantly. Yet for no specific reasons (it's just a feeling) I would not be surprised if the victim's relatives really want to leave it at this. This is not meant to discourage any further discussion here. Certainly not. It's just that on another (travel)board we're presently still dealing with the grief, the immense frustrations and the anger of a relative of another woman who - in the Himalayas - fell from an icy and very slippery trail to her death several hundreds of meters earlier this year (March). She too hiked alone. And I'm impressed, and saddened, by the impact of such tragedies on the close relatives (friends, colleagues) of people who died that way: on a lovely holiday, in the beautfiful mountains. I hope you'll understand. And I hope you won't take this as "criticism" on the way this thread is developing, because that isn't my intention. I take a great interest in forensic investigation, logic, and such things. In Marijke's case it seems that there is no suspicion at all of any possible foul play. And I guess the main lesson, for everyone, is again that it's potentially extra dangerous to make such (hiking) journeys all on your own...

I must confess I don't quite understand what you're referring to Ragnar, as the photo of Muru ending into Lake Gjende still has its original URL at present. But it's late here meanwhile, and whatever you decide to do: it's okay. And thank you.

With all due respect, but though "my Norwegian" certainly has improved, it would be far too risky to interpret everything the two of you said in here (Tom & El Gringo). At the same time though, I am aware this has all been a matter for the Lom police, and they don't need my opinion. I've read comments this past week on a great many messageboards, newssites and forums, comments regarding where the body was discovered. Many comments are from people who wonder why tourists decide to visit environments like Jotunheimen all alone. There's a lot of (cheap) criticism in that respect. And the best explanations I found were the comments made by Sam in the other thread here, and one on a Dutch messageboard where somebody simply asked: "what if you don't have anyone else to accompany you?" And that is true. I understand many people who know Jotunheimen well, think she may have tried to cross the river Muru. Therefore, here is a photo (of mid-July 1995) of the place where Muru finds it way into the Gjende Lake... Nothing will ever bring her back alive. But to think she loved travelling and that she "lived her dreams" by going to Norway, dying in a place as beautiful and "real" - meaning authentic "Mother Nature" - as Jotunheimen may perhaps bring at least a little consolation to those who miss her so dearly. original source of the photo edited because the photo is now hosted elsewhere, to avoid stealing bandwith Picture is removed because it is copyrighted by another party, and unless poster can prove approval from the photograph, posting of the image is not allowed.